Series Why piracy is restricting FMH

[Dec]

That isn't piracy that is just breaking the EULA.

[18sparky75]

Your the type of person who reads every bit of the t&c and all the eula etc aint you dec? Who cares mate, corporations make millions and millions every year and pay their workers penuts in comparison. Who cares if someone breaks the end user license agreement? No me

[Dec]

No I don't but when it effects small companies and my friends for the sake of £7 I do care about piracy and won't tolerate it. We don't encourage you to break the EULA.

 

To be honest you sound like the dick who goes "if it isn't me I don't care" which isn't the way to live life. Either that or you are a child so don't know the strains of life.

[18sparky75]

Im a child? Im 22 and have my own house lad. Im not talking about piracy! Im talking about me having old psp games which I WORKED to pay for mounting them as an iso on my computer and playing them on an emulator since I since broke my psp (due to strains of life). Your what 20? And majority of your life seems revolving football manager? Do you work for si or sega? If you do great if not its a sad obsession

Whos we? Im taking to you, you answer for you not a group

[Lee-Roy]

^^ is there like 'an opposite of give reputation' I can do for this post?

[Dec]

Good for you. As I said, that isn't piracy that is breaking the EULA which is actually breaking the agreement of your purchase and can void your warranty and wouldn't be supported.

 

As for your attack...if you say so. I am at University this is great for my CV and you attacking me just shows how unfulfilled your life must be as you know nothing about me. Hardly a sad obsession when it is a friend who is Head of Handheld and supports this, in a lot of ways that is flattering and when I want to work for SI it hardly is a "sad obsession" considering it helps in my dream.

 

We as the site do not tolerate illegal activity and it is a punishable offence. As the administrator of the site it is my job to represent the site and the member's in an impartial view to make this a safe, legal and enjoyable environment for all.

[18sparky75]

I said if you dont work for si and all you do is sit and play football manager. I want to be a games programmer aswell or did, but since I have my own house and commitments I probably wont go to college and do it. As I said old psp games. I don't care about the warranty on it mate.

[Dec]

Well it isn't all I do so before you start throwing insults and presumptions maybe you should get to know someone first. Either way old or not we don't recommend it as the EULA is there for a reason and we at FMHVibe stay very safe in this and don't promote it at all out of respect for SI and also the complex legal situations.

[Ceirdiff]

Dec, as an iTunes user then I'm fairly certain that at some point or another you will have breached an EULA within the last few years - Apples EULA's are often full of absurd clauses

 

Anyway, on the topic of piracy then I always paste the same two links:

• Bulletproof Outlaws
• 2D Boy

Both are indie-game developers, one is a tad more renowned than the other. Both of them come to the same conclusion that piracy has a tiny effect on the success of the game - as 2D Boy points out (the developers of World of Goo) then research shows that only 1 in every 1000 pirated copies translates into a real world sale. Or, as concluded by Bulletproof Outlaws (a tiny indie-developer who now sells his soul to work for other indie outfits) the pirate users give you another method of advertising your game by massively increasing the number of users over what you'd have in a non-pirate world.

 

Whilst piracy is obviously not ideal, you should also consider that piracy can (perhaps ironically) help boost a game and make it more successful, and that let's be honest - it's not something that's ever going to go away and as these guys are showing most DRM is just annoying to genuine consumers and doesn't significantly increase sales figures at all.

 

Oh, and sorry about this post being a week after yours, I hadn't checked the forums in a while, but felt that you'd find these blog posts interesting anyway

[TheFalse9]

I don't really agree with that, it is basing it on the premise that everyone has morals and isn't self centred plus you cannot view piracy as a lost potential sale or a sale in future. While they have a point about being a measure of success but the more people who pirate it and recommend it the more they will recommend pirating it to their friends.

From a developer's point of view, surely pirating a game and telling your friends about it is better than not buying it at all? I'm not saying I endorse piracy, but just because someone pirates something, doesn't mean their friends will - that is a fairly far-fetched assumption. So if someone wasn't planning on buying the game anyway, it's surely better that they pirate the game and essentially advertise it?

[Ceirdiff]

 

I don't really agree with that, it is basing it on the premise that everyone has morals and isn't self centred plus you cannot view piracy as a lost potential sale or a sale in future. While they have a point about being a measure of success but the more people who pirate it and recommend it the more they will recommend pirating it to their friends.

From a developer's point of view, pirating a game and telling your friends about it is better than not buying it at all? I'm not saying I endorse piracy, but just because someone pirates something, doesn't mean their friends will - that is a fairly far-fetched assumption. So if someone wasn't planning on buying the game anyway, it's surely better that they pirate the game and essentially advertise it?

 

 

Which is exactly what that Bulletproof Outlaws guy was saying if you scroll down to the piracy section. If a person who pirates the game recommends it to their friends there is a decent chance their friend won't pirate the game themselves, and even if they do there is no loss as they probably wouldn't have bought the game before hand - let alone potentially advertise further it via word of mouth opening up the door for more honest people to want to purchase the game.

[Dec]

Ceirdiff - You just responded to a post justifying your previous post that was made before yours. To be honest I don't really agree, I am not treating all pirates as lost sales, I am treating a percantage as and justifying piracy by saying "I am showing it to friends" is stupid and wrong. The fact of the matter is if their friends have a pirated game odds are MORE likely that they will pirate it to and even if they don't then it is still 1/2 real copies of the game instead of 1/1 like it should be. Also you are saying a pirate recommends games but what you and the other guy are not taking into account is that if they liked the game and bought it they would still do the same, it isn't something exclusive to pirates but in fact it is making it more likely more people will pirate it as a friend will give them the means in more cases than not.

[TheFalse9]

Ceirdiff - You just responded to a post justifying your previous post that was made before yours. To be honest I don't really agree, I am not treating all pirates as lost sales, I am treating a percantage as and justifying piracy by saying "I am showing it to friends" is stupid and wrong. The fact of the matter is if their friends have a pirated game odds are MORE likely that they will pirate it to and even if they don't then it is still 1/2 real copies of the game instead of 1/1 like it should be. Also you are saying a pirate recommends games but what you and the other guy are not taking into account is that if they liked the game and bought it they would still do the same, it isn't something exclusive to pirates but in fact it is making it more likely more people will pirate it as a friend will give them the means in more cases than not.

Yes, recommendations are exclusive to pirates, but let's say you have a pirate who wasn't going to buy the game anyway/couldn't afford it and someone who bought the game. If both of them enjoy the game, they are going to recommend it to their friends - so that's two recommendations. However, if the pirate didn't pirate the game, there would only be one recommendation rather than the potential two.

[Dec]

Sorry I just laughed at that out loud. No, just no. It sounds like you are trying to justify you pirating the game "Couldn't afford it?" They have the internet, an expensive device to run it on but not the £7? I highly doubt that.

You are saying the pirate is a recommendation, not true. How is it? He isn't going to recommend it himself, he has pirated the game already and has already played it. The only way he is not going to is if the pirated version breaks and he cannot fix it. He is still recommending it to 1 person either way and even so how many people would recommend the game and not buy the game themselves but tell their friends to? They won't, a high number would give them the pirated version or show them how to get the pirate version.

What you are saying is every pirate is a potential sale (not true).

Pirates will recommend their friends to BUY the game (low chance).

[TheFalse9]

Sorry I just laughed at that out loud. No, just no. It sounds like you are trying to justify you pirating the game "Couldn't afford it?" They have the internet, an expensive device to run it on but not the £7? I highly doubt that.

You are saying the pirate is a recommendation, not true. How is it? He isn't going to recommend it himself, he has pirated the game already and has already played it. The only way he is not going to is if the pirated version breaks and he cannot fix it. He is still recommending it to 1 person either way and even so how many people would recommend the game and not buy the game themselves but tell their friends to? They won't, a high number would give them the pirated version or show them how to get the pirate version.

What you are saying is every pirate is a potential sale (not true).

Pirates will recommend their friends to BUY the game (low chance).

I actually did say earlier that I don't endorse piracy at all, but I'm just trying to tell you that it's not as negative for the game as you think.

 

Yes, it's unlikely someone won't be able to afford £7, but that's not the point. If someone pirates the game, they're unlikely to be proud of doing so, so they may just recommend it to friends - without mentioning they pirated it. If you stole something, why would you tell people you stole it? I can understand some of the points you're making, but it's a shame that you're too much of a bigot to accept that other people may have valid points which differ from your own.

[Dec]

Just try and insult me, that will get me to listen. Nice work, I am not a bigot I am just a realist. You have a fantasy that works on paper but not in real life. People aren't ashamed in pirating the game, in fact it is common place in a lot of countries and they are open about it. Even in the UK I know people who aren't afraid to admit or share their pirated films etc, it is the same thing. Your points aren't valid to be honest, they are glamorisations of society and people's morality. As someone who has to deal with people asking for pirated copies of FMH every single week on a FMH Facebook page and also dealing with other FMH "fansites" that share the game I can tell you that they have no shame at all. If the world was a happy place and everyone had out view then yes maybe your opinion would be right on piracy but they don't.

[TheFalse9]

Just try and insult me, that will get me to listen. Nice work, I am not a bigot I am just a realist. You have a fantasy that works on paper but not in real life. People aren't ashamed in pirating the game, in fact it is common place in a lot of countries and they are open about it. Even in the UK I know people who aren't afraid to admit or share their pirated films etc, it is the same thing. Your points aren't valid to be honest, they are glamorisations of society and people's morality. As someone who has to deal with people asking for pirated copies of FMH every single week on a FMH Facebook page and also dealing with other FMH "fansites" that share the game I can tell you that they have no shame at all. If the world was a happy place and everyone had out view then yes maybe your opinion would be right on piracy but they don't.

Well you clearly weren't listening - and laughing at my points? Seriously? It's a bit hypocritical to criticise me for insulting you.

 

Actually, you have a fantasy that works on paper. The world isn't divided into 'good' and 'bad', black-and-white. Yes, there are many people unashamed about piracy, but I'm sure a lot wouldn't boast to their friends about it. Asking for pirated copies is completely different to telling everyone you have one - and plus, a lot of those people asking are foreign, and therefore may have been used to a different view towards piracy - or maybe if they understood the forum rules more (especially how it is a FMH-endorsed site), they wouldn't be so stupid as to ask for pirated copies.

[Dec]

It is black and white - Piracy is bad. It is that simple, there is nothing else to it, really there are no legitimate excuses to pirate the game. There are many ashamed about piracy but there are many who aren't and are sharing the game pirated but also saying they have a pirated game and wanting help on it. I am not discussing your sunny day view on humanity anymore as it is just wrong when you look at reality as you think people are moral and that really isn't the case or we wouldn't have murderers or piracy in the first place. You can have your opinion but I think you will find if you spend a long time as close to the game as I am and talking to as many as I do that the roses in your garden of reality have thorns on them.

[rafa]

Piracy was the main reason why the playstation won the battle against the Nintendo 64.

[Dec]

Yes but that is totally different to a game. They had to sell units to allow people to pirate it but in this day and age where people have whatever phone they like regardless of games then that is no longer the case and for game developers it is still the same issue as now as they aren't selling their products as people are pirating it. Yes for Sony it worked as it got their units sold, but for the developers like Naughty Dog in which their games were pirated then no it isn't. Why do you think Crash Bandicoot has never sold as many as Call of Duty? It isn't about appeal it is the fact COD couldn't be pirated on Xbox 360.

[TheFalse9]

It is black and white - Piracy is bad. It is that simple, there is nothing else to it, really there are no legitimate excuses to pirate the game. There are many ashamed about piracy but there are many who aren't and are sharing the game pirated but also saying they have a pirated game and wanting help on it. I am not discussing your sunny day view on humanity anymore as it is just wrong when you look at reality as you think people are moral and that really isn't the case or we wouldn't have murderers or piracy in the first place. You can have your opinion but I think you will find if you spend a long time as close to the game as I am and talking to as many as I do that the roses in your garden of reality have thorns on them.

You claim you are a realist, and then you come out and say it's black and white. Nothing in life is black and white, especially not this. Yes, it's not right to pirate games, but you can't dismiss it as entirely bad - that's just naive. And I know some people aren't moral, but most are - that's why we have a society like this where buying is the norm and stealing is the exception.

 

You may not be a bigot, but you really are starting to sound like one - and a hypocrite too.

[Dec]

So you are saying the law isn't black and white? If that is the case then why are there only two verdicts - guilty and not guilty? Is your game a genuine copy? Yes or no. That is all it requires, if it is no then the game is illegal and that is it. Quite simple really. Adding extra implications into it are called excuses, unless there is a genuine excuse (which I am yet to find for this and I have heard most) then maybe it wouldn't be that simple but there isn't.

Again with the insults, laughing at a post isn't as personal as calling someone names without real merit. You don't know me so stop assuming you do please and if you don't like me then get off my site as you won't have a fun time on here, thanks.

[TheFalse9]

So you are saying the law isn't black and white? If that is the case then why are there only two verdicts - guilty and not guilty? Is your game a genuine copy? Yes or no. That is all it requires, if it is no then the game is illegal and that is it. Quite simple really. Adding extra implications into it are called excuses, unless there is a genuine excuse (which I am yet to find for this and I have heard most) then maybe it wouldn't be that simple but there isn't.

Again with the insults, laughing at a post isn't as personal as calling someone names without real merit. You don't know me so stop assuming you do please and if you don't like me then get off my site as you won't have a fun time on here, thanks.

The law is black and white, yes, but who says the law is perfect - I think you're being the idealist, here. I've said again and again that I don't endorse piracy, but I'm just trying to prove the point that piracy isn't completely bad for a game - it's not ideal, but it's not the worse thing ever either. 

 

Calling you a bigot isn't personal, and it wasn't without merit. As I said in my last post - 'you may not be a bigot', clearly implying that I didn't assume I knew everything about you - just how you were acting online. And when have I said I don't like you? I was having a civilised discussion, but you decided to act childish and 'laugh' at my post - and it seems you don't even read what I post before replying. Stop assuming.

[Dec]

The law isn't there to be perfect, it is there to be fair and set society in a position everyone knows. The fact is no one can justify a 11:1 piracy rate at all, it isn't helping else it wouldn't be 11:1 at all and pirates are more likely to share their piracy else how do you think it gets online? Actually I think you will find it is. I am sure if FMH2014 sold one copy and everyone else pirated it the studio wouldn't make any more games. Without the money that buying the game brings in then the game cannot exist, how is that not the worst thing?

Calling me a name isn't personal? Erm yes it is. I think you will find it is slander. Yes I did laugh, as you are trying to justify illegal activity with what you think are valid points. I suppose you justify shoplifting too? Even then that is easier to justify with piracy as there are instances that can be done compared to playing a £7 game for £0 on a £100 device and then claiming to have no money. I am not reading what you put? So how am I able to counter your views and respond relevantly? That is magic stuff, I must be very good at assumption then or a wizard. Either way, it is ridiculous to say that. Anyway, this has derailed enough as you seem to be intent on turning it into a slagging match and off topic so any more posts on here from you about this will be deleted and punished as seen fit.

[TheFalse9]

The law isn't there to be perfect, it is there to be fair and set society in a position everyone knows. The fact is no one can justify a 11:1 piracy rate at all, it isn't helping else it wouldn't be 11:1 at all and pirates are more likely to share their piracy else how do you think it gets online? Actually I think you will find it is. I am sure if FMH2014 sold one copy and everyone else pirated it the studio wouldn't make any more games. Without the money that buying the game brings in then the game cannot exist, how is that not the worst thing?

Calling me a name isn't personal? Erm yes it is. I think you will find it is slander. Yes I did laugh, as you are trying to justify illegal activity with what you think are valid points. I suppose you justify shoplifting too? Even then that is easier to justify with piracy as there are instances that can be done compared to playing a £7 game for £0 on a £100 device and then claiming to have no money. I am not reading what you put? So how am I able to counter your views and respond relevantly? That is magic stuff, I must be very good at assumption then or a wizard. Either way, it is ridiculous to say that. Anyway, this has derailed enough as you seem to be intent on turning it into a slagging match and off topic so any more posts on here from you about this will be deleted and punished as seen fit.

It's all about the ratios, though, like you've said. The fact is, there will be people buying it - because some people have strong morals. I agree that if the majority of people pirate something, that is clearly bad, but a small amount of piracy is not entirely bad. I think you've misunderstood my point about piracy - piracy in general is bad, but it does have a few upsides; piracy as a majority is terrible for a game, with no advantages at all. With the point about not having enough money, that was a bit of a throwaway comment, I was more emphasizing that some people may have had no intention of buying it anyway, rather that literally not being able to afford it.

 

And it's not slander if it's true - I've even said that 'you may not be a bigot' (implying I was judging you merely on this discussion), but you were acting rather bigoted a few posts back. Some of your points are valid, yes, but you accused me of 'assuming I know you' and 'not liking you' - which I didn't say or imply at all. Bar the bigot statement, I haven't slagged you off at all - in fact, I'm pretty sure you've been more negative towards me than me you. 

 

Basically, all I was saying was that I think you've not really looked at both sides of the arguing in an unbiased light before forming your judgement. 

[Dec]

You are saying this on the basis I wrote it about general piracy, I didn't. The piracy for FMH is large, I used that in consideration of my article's content

Well done on not reading my post.

Here is the line, PM me if you really want to carry this on but I have already warned you once about doing it here.

---

[MerlionMaple96]

Quick Question - Where/How exactly are the rates for piracy estimated? There is no visible trace or trail to piracy so where do estimates like 11:1 come from?

[Dec]

With FMH people have to download things from the SI server, they can see how many people have downloaded the data packet from the server to how many have bought the game.

[MerlionMaple96]

Ahhh...okay

[dirtboy]

If you can afford a device, surely you can afford FMH. What other excuse is there?