Series The Regen Issue - Past, Present and Future

[Peely]

The Regen Issue - Past, Present and Future

 

 

FMH 2014 saw some significant changes to the way in which retiring players (and their replacements) were dealt with, although I think many will agree that the success of these changes is debatable. With FMH2014 drawing to a close and the sparkling form of FMH 2015 just starting to show it’s head above the horizon, I thought that it might be worth looking at the issues around regens and how these have been addressed. I’ll also consider how SI might handle things in FMH 2015.

 

Out with the old and in with the new

 

It’s a fact of life that football players get old and retire so, if you’re making a football management game and want your users to have careers that last more than a few years, you have to come up with some method of replacing the old codgers with shiny new youngsters. This may seem straightforward enough - just have youth players popping up each season at roughly the same rate as players retire – but there are some pitfalls that have to be avoided:

 

Database balance

 

The database at the start of the game is realistically balanced – there is a nice spread of different abilities, positions, ages and nationalities. This is hardly surprising, since it is drawn from real life. If you just start throwing randomly generated players into the mix whenever an old-timer retires, however, the balance could easily be upset. Imagine a world where the best left wing-back has a PA of 95 or there are only five English goalies and they’re all 4’ 8”. Clearly any system needs to have measures in place to maintain a decent balance.

 

Realistic players

 

Assuming you can work out the code to ensure that the entire Scottish team aren’t 200 PA ball-playing defenders, the next problem that you have to deal with is how to make sure that the players you create look reasonably sensible. If you assign attributes and secondary playing positions randomly you could find yourself with strikers who couldn’t hit the back of the net, even if they were standing in the goal and goal keepers who also fancy themselves as pacey wingers. While Fernando Torres has based the latter part of his career on emulating the first scenario and Mark Bosnich showed an occasional fondness for the (far) right wing, most people would prefer if players looked at least somewhat sane.

 

Making it fun, but challenging

 

One of the great pleasures of football management games is finding a wonderkid in some backwater club and taking him to stardom. For lower league managers, in particular, the bargain youth signing is often what makes it possible to take Havant and Waterlooville from obscurity to glory. When you’re designing a system to replace retiring players, you want to make it possible for managers to find the cream of your youthful crop, but in an ideal world it shouldn’t be too easy. If you can take over at a non-league club a few years into the game, do a simple search with a couple of filters set and find a whole new team’s worth of 18 year old prodigies, available for tuppence ha’penny, it does rather reduce the challenge.

 

This has turned out to be a much longer (and more rambling) piece than I imagined when I started it, so I’ll be splitting it into instalments. The next, looking at past and present solutions to the regen issue will be along soon.

 

This post has been promoted to an article

[Lee-Roy]

I enjoyed your ramble and I'm looking forward to more :lol:

[Peely]

SI’s Original Solution

 

Faced with the above issues, SI took a simple but effective approach to the problem: the Regen System. When a player retired he would be replaced, a few months later, by a copy. This doppelganger would have a different name and, of course, be a lot younger, but would, in essence, be the same player. There was a certain amount of randomisation involved: physical stats and heading were variable, the age could be anywhere between 16 and the mid to late twenties and on very rare occasions the nationality could change. The main features of the player where, however, duplicated more or less exactly – playing positions, PA and technical attributes.

 

This had some positives:

 

• The database balance never changed, because it was always made up of the same players.
• The new players looked realistic, because they were based on real players.
• A lot of people enjoyed “regen hunting”: tracking down the rejuvenated Giggs, Beckham or Raul and watching as they lit up the world of football all over again.

A good, old-fashioned regen.

 

There was, however a problem: once managers understood what was going on it became very easy to find world-class regens and build a team of monsters. There were frequent complaints that this made the game too easy and predictable, with some managers ending up with essentially the same team of regens in every career. It didn’t help that the regens usually appeared at minor clubs in their home countries, with the sort of valuations that would leave you enough change from a tenner to buy a bag of chips and a taxi home.

 

If they were to address these complaints, SI would need to introduce a greater degree of randomness into the regen system, without messing up database balance or spawning a bunch of players that looked like they’d been put together by Dr Frankenstein on a bad day. At the same time, SI didn’t particularly want to alienate those managers who liked hunting down Gerrard Mark II. Their solution was the evogen system.

 

Evogens

 

FMH2014 brought a significant overhaul to the way in which new players were generated when an old player retired. I’ve already looked at the evogen system in fairly heavy detail in “Peely’s Great Big Evogen Study”, so I won’t spend too much time going over the workings of it here. In essence, though, the evogen system works like this:

 

• When a player retires a copy is created, as before.
• The player’s playing positions can change.
• The player’s nationality can change, although this doesn’t seem to happen any more than under the old system.
• Occasionally, the player can have their PA stripped away and replaced with what appears to be a random value.
• Their old PA gets passed on to another player, who is already in the database when the player retires.
• Evogen players with decent ability tend to have a higher starting valuation than in previous versions.

Behold, an evogen!

 

The most important differences are the PA stripping and changes to positions. PA stripping can mean that the regen of Pirlo that you hunted down is a useless donkey, while the talentless reserve that you were trying to get rid of suddenly becomes a footballing genius. Adding a degree of randomness to the playing positions simply makes it a bit more challenging to identify an evogen in the first place, since the positions that a player plays in were generally seen as the surest way to identify a regen under the old system.

 

On the face of it, these changes do make things less predictable and more challenging; finding the evogen of a great player is not only trickier, because you can’t rely in their positions to be identical any more, but there’s no guarantee that the evogen will actually be any good. Similarly, the movement of PAs will shift the talent around both the pitch and the globe: Messi’s ability could be inherited by an Irish wingback, for example. Finally, because the PAs of retiring players remain in the database, the overall balance should be maintained. Sadly, while the move to evogens introduced more challenge and unpredictability and more or less maintained database balance, it failed to adequately address the third issue – realistic players.

 

The fact that players will frequently change their playing positions when they regenerate can lead to outlandish combinations that are jarringly unrealistic:

 

Goalie confusion

 

This is just a fairly obvious example. Once you get 15+ years into a career the database starts to look decidedly wonky, with all sorts of peculiar combinations. The majority of players still have fairly reasonable combinations of playing positions, but there are enough oddities to damage immersion.

 

The bigger issue, in my opinion, comes from the movement of PAs. When this happens to a star you end up with players like this:

 

Gareth Bale, what have they done to you?

 

Poor old Gareth Bale came back with a PA of about 60, but apparently he’s still really technically gifted. How many lower-league quality players would warrant a rating of 18 for technique? This issue is rife by the later stages of a 30 year career; a search with the filter set to include players with a technique rating above 17 brings back lots of fallen stars and, once again, it makes it difficult to immerse yourself in a world that seems so unrealistic.

 

The other side of this issue can be seen in players like Angus O’Donnell:

 

Apparently this is what £40.5 million’s worth of wingback will look like in 2039.

 

I haven’t checked his PA, but I’d imagine it’s somewhere in excess of 170, sadly nobody seems to have told his attributes.

 

The very fact that, when the PA gets stripped from a retired star it gets passed to an existing player is a big issue and doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Creating a situation where any player in the game can suddenly and without any explanation go from rubbish to world-class is bizarre. It would seem far more sensible to give the PA to another, fresh evogen, perhaps even swapping the PAs so that the evogen of the great player gets the PA of the other, lesser evogen and vice versa. I can only assume that the current approach is a stop-gap measure, due to restrictions in the way that the current version of FMH is coded.

 

The next instalment will look to the future and consider how SI might approach the regen issue in FMH 2015.

[Dec]

Looking forward to seeing your opinion, very good write up so far. What do you think of newgens or do you think that is too complex? The lack of faces late in the game does annoy me even if that is the only bit of the newgens system it takes. I would also like nationalities to peak and dwindle. For example is Ivory Coast ever going to produce another Drogba? It would make more sense for these nations to be swapped as if they aren't playable it would make more of a challenge and realistic as nationalities do come into the frame (think Belgium) then don't stay consistent.

The other thing I would like to see is the rise and fall of roles. Strong strikers are at a premium at the moment but 10 years ago there were so many of them. Something like this would make a big difference in my opinion.

I also believe they should scrap sending to a player in game unless their age is below 21 else it would be unrealistic. On a similar note, very few amazing players come from lower leagues, CA/PA should but not always generate according to the club rank.

[Ashez]

I've never had an interest in the regen system but this series of articles really has me hooked!

One of my pet hates is early regens, i'm on my third season on a save and the amount of goals i've conceded to these made up players gets me mad lol. I'd love a system in place where they don't appear until later in the game when they are actually needed, i don't want to be defeated in the second season thanks to a Raul or Henry creation!!

[Lee-Roy]

I've never had an interest in the regen system but this series of articles really has me hooked! One of my pet hates is early regens, i'm on my third season on a save and the amount of goals i've conceded to these made up players gets me mad lol. I'd love a system in place where they don't appear until later in the game when they are actually needed, i don't want to be defeated in the second season thanks to a Raul or Henry creation!!

But, on the back of that, how cool is it that you can be LFC, get defeated by Dulwich Hamlet in the carling cup due to an inspirational performance by a 15yo who later on becomes WPOTY at Barcelona. I'd love a fully working regen/evogen system that works.

[Peely]

What next?

 

With FMH 2015 looming on the horizon, the obvious question is what next for the regen/evogen system? As I see it, there are a number of possibilities:

 

More of the same

 

SI could, of course, leave things as they are, but I certainly hope that they don’t. As mentioned above, aspects of the current system seem like stop-gaps to add a bit of variation to the system while they work on something else for 2015. I hope that this is the case; I would be bitterly disappointed if they stick with the current system.

 

 

Out with the new and in with the old

 

If SI decided that the feedback on the changes they have made in this version is sufficiently negative they could, at least in theory, go back to the tried and tested regen system of days gone by. I would, honestly, prefer this to continuing with the current evogen system, but I don’t think that it’s likely to happen.

 

There hasn’t been much negative feedback about evogens on the official forum at all and it would seem like the game was moving backwards if they reverted one of the changes that set FMH 2014 apart from its predecessor. For better or worse, I suspect that the old regen system is gone for good.

 

Something completely different

 

Of course, the Holy Grail when it comes to replacing retiring players is generating a completely new player for every one that retires (newgens). There would be no connection between the old and the new and everything would be fresh, bright and sparkly. This would certainly revolutionise the game, making managers scout for young talent in a more realistic manner and killing off regens once and for all. This sounds fantastic, but I’d imagine that if this approach was feasible, SI would have done it already.

 

It comes back to the issues of database balance and realism mentioned previously. I’m no programmer, so I can only imagine the difficulty in devising systems that can generate realistic looking footballers with appropriate attributes and playing positions, while keeping the balance of the database in terms of nationalities, ability and positions. Any flaws in the system would be magnified by the huge numbers of players being generated over a long career with results that could be far worse than the current evogen system produces. In short, if the current system of evogens is anything to go by, I don't think we want SI to attempt a newgen system just yet.

 

Even if a perfect system could be devised, the processing requirements would probably strain the abilities of modern mobile devices and, at the very least, have a significant impact on the performance of FMH.

 

Evolving the Evogens

 

I think it is more likely that SI will continue to develop the Evogen system, hopefully ironing out the issues that make the current approach unsatisfactory:

 

• When the PA is removed from a retiring player it should go to a fresh evogen, rather than an existing player.
• Some sort of algorithm to ensure that the evogen that receives this hefty PA has stats that reflect their ability, to some extent. I don’t expect every stat to be green, but they should at least look like they have the potential to be decent.
• Similarly, some way to reduce the stats of the evogen that has had their PA stripped away. No more 30 PA players with 19 technique.
• Improved logic around changes in playing positions to ensure that strange combinations don’t crop up (or at least not as often).
• Assuming that they keep PA switching in the game, I would also like the chance for PA to be stripped to be completely random, rather than the current situation where some players always seem to lose their PA (notably Giggs and Bale).

I'm hoping for a fairly major overhaul - if the current system remains as it is it will seriously affect my desire to undertake lengthy careers on FMH 2015. I don't think we can suspect any more than an overhaul, though; newgens just seems a step to far at the moment, but perhaps SI will prove me wrong

 

Making Regens Fun

 

For a lot of managers, hunting down regens has been something approaching a side-game within FMH, but as SI moves away from the classic regen model, perhaps it's time to add fun in other ways. Here are some of my ideas on how this could be done, but please chip in with your own:

 

• Return of the legends - I've mentioned this in the Easter Egg thread, but I would love there to be a small chance of legends from years gone by to appear as regens. Some of them could be genuine legends (Maradonna, Cruyff etc.) while others could be Championship Manager "legends", such as the famously temperamental Djalminha, The youthful prodigy Dime Kuzev or the entirely fictional To Madeira.
• Players' sons - we already have the chance to manage your own son, but I'd like to see the offspring of long-standing players appear in the reserves on rare occasions. It's pretty common for a son to follow in his father's footsteps in the world of football, so it would be nice if we could see this in game.
• More control over your son - It takes a fair bit of work to get an in-game son (or a bit of real money), yet more often than not, the result is a useless waste of skin. I would like it if, instead of just being another regen, your son was an entirely new player and, My Club style, you could choose his position and ability. It would take some of the fun out of not knowing what you're going to get, but it would at least ensure that the ten+ years of dedication would result in a player that you could make use of.

So ends my look at the past, present and possible future of regens. Please let me know what you think the future holds and what you would like to see in an ideal world.

This post has been promoted to an article

[Dec]

I generally agree with all of the above, nice work with the noted addition of having players' CA/PA generally relating to the club they are going to with only a few exceptions. It is annoying seeing Dover filled with PA that is world class.

I doubt legends is possible sadly without license and also I feel it'd break realism.

Great article mate, don't forget to promote it.

[Ashez]

Great work and again i agree with most of it . The only part i don't agree with is the son selection, i love the hope and excitement that comes with seeing your son for the first time, maybe your idea would be better suited to be used when using the unlockable but even that would be next to pointless next to just adding one player via Myclub.

[Peely]

I generally agree with all of the above, nice work with the noted addition of having players' CA/PA generally relating to the club they are going to with only a few exceptions. It is annoying seeing Dover filled with PA that is world class.

I doubt legends is possible sadly without license and also I feel it'd break realism.

Great article mate, don't forget to promote it.

 

Thanks Dec. For the legends I would imagine a slight change of name would be necessary to side-step any licensing issues and would help to avoid too jarring an impact on immersion and realism.

 

Great players appearing at top clubs would certainly be more realistic, but it is fun to have the next Gerrard pop up at  the lower league club that you;re managing for example.

 

Great work and again i agree with most of it . The only part i don't agree with is the son selection, i love the hope and excitement that comes with seeing your son for the first time, maybe your idea would be better suited to be used when using the unlockable but even that would be next to pointless next to just adding one player via Myclub.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, although I do wish that the son that the game gives you wasn't such a crushing disappointment most of the time. Having said that, most of the sons that I've seen this year (both mine and other people's) have been reasonable, so maybe there's something at work behind the scenes in this year's game.

 

I'd like to see the fact that your son is your son playing more of a part in the game. At the very least it would be nice if you got some extra media stories based on how well your son was doing.

[Ashez]

Yeah i agree it could do with improving. The two parts of the game that are meant to be "emotional" (getting a son and your retirement) feel empty for such a personal experience.

[dirtboy]

My opinion-

A retiring player's nationality should be randomized as well as his position (other than natural). This would obviously have to be sensible (no keepers with yellow positions everywhere else and not having all the best players become New Zealanders). But good finish to the article

[Lee-Roy]

More control over your son, definitely something that should be sorted out. I'd be happy with him as a Regen if the regens regen'd properly :lol:

With a working regen system I'd only make one change to the son feature, and that'd be a dual nationality of whatever country you're managing in.

Great work anyway, you've now nominated yourself to investigate next years regens.

[Alari]

 

 

• When the PA is removed from a retiring player it should go to a fresh evogen, rather than an existing player.
• Some sort of algorithm to ensure that the evogen that receives this hefty PA has stats that reflect their ability, to some extent. I don’t expect every stat to be green, but they should at least look like they have the potential to be decent.
• Similarly, some way to reduce the stats of the evogen that has had their PA stripped away. No more 30 PA players with 19 technique.
• Improved logic around changes in playing positions to ensure that strange combinations don’t crop up (or at least not as often).
• Assuming that they keep PA switching in the game, I would also like the chance for PA to be stripped to be completely random, rather than the current situation where some players always seem to lose their PA (notably Giggs and Bale).

 

 

Just want to address a few points within this...

- One advantage of the current system is that it allows us to simulate the sort of player that is a surprise late bloomer

- It's actually very common IRL that you have players with excellent technique that simply lack the other relevant abilities to use this properly over the course of a football match. There might be something of a correlation between technique and ability but it is not even close to universal

- Why would a player have attributes reflecting their PA? It's their CA that mainly determines these

- We appreciate that the positions are sometimes a bit funny and that there are certain nations that can suffer in the long run under the current system more than others and these are things we'll be looking into in the longer term but obviously this is an area where there is no such thing as a quick fix.

[dirtboy]

I like the late bloomer part, Drogba is one that easily comes to mind.