Chat Don't get too excited for FMM2017

[UKFootballScore]

1 minute ago, Guillermo Alberto said:

I want to make sure I got this correctly.

 

The match engine calculates every move the players make at the beggining of the match, including the ones that would follow after hypothetical tactic changes, such as subs, position or role changes. Then, if a particular change is made, the final result will be no different to that calculated at the beggining because it already took into account that possible change.

 

Is that correct?

No that is what the processing after each change does. It recalculates the rest of the game again

[Dec]

4 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

I understand what you're saying, but what I mean is that if many people are confusing a role to mean something that it's not, then we either need to improve the role description or change how that role works. e.g. if 1/2 people misunderstand what a poacher does then it's not a huge deal, but if a large amount of people do then clearly we need to do something to make our perception of the role closer to yours.

I really like the suggestion of highlighting the relevant attributes for a player role on a player's profile. I think you should post it in the wish-list thread on the official forums @Dec. I can make no guarantees as to what goes in each year, but posting it there will make sure that we go through it when considering what features to put in. I really like the way it works in the PC version, it's helpful for sure.

Posted it in my long list ages ago and spoke to Marc Duffy about it . Duffy knows where I am if he needs my opinions. Please mention you like these ideas to him, may give him a push and they seem like "quick wins" to be honest which I am sure he will like. Hopefully he will take note of them. The little circle FM does is very useful indeed and should be in the game already. I have been saying for over a year the game needs to be more accessible and this is 100% one of the areas.

 

The news feed is under utilised in this aspect too. Simple messages like above would do wonders to helping to manage a team.

Then pair that with more control via media and team talks done right would elevate the game so much while making it more accessible as you feel like you have control over everything. Imagine you are on a losing streak and then your assistant comes to you and says..

"The players are feeling disheartened with the current form of the team. You should talk to them to try and get a result in the next match

 

Options:

*The results haven't been there but the performances are good, the win will come

*Next match is key. I expect a win.

*Forget the past results we have a good chance of winning the next game

*Relax and play your own game, we can pick up our form over the coming matches"

 

What do you think about that? At the moment it seems that if you don't tweak tactics and drop players then you are a bit stuck, this feels very limiting.

[Guille]

3 minutes ago, Dec said:

Posted it in my long list ages ago and spoke to Marc Duffy about it . Duffy knows where I am if he needs my opinions. Please mention you like these ideas to him, may give him a push and they seem like "quick wins" to be honest which I am sure he will like. Hopefully he will take note of them. The little circle FM does is very useful indeed and should be in the game already. I have been saying for over a year the game needs to be more accessible and this is 100% one of the areas.

 

The news feed is under utilised in this aspect too. Simple messages like above would do wonders to helping to manage a team.

Then pair that with more control via media and team talks done right would elevate the game so much while making it more accessible as you feel like you have control over everything. Imagine you are on a losing streak and then your assistant comes to you and says..

"The players are feeling disheartened with the current form of the team. You should talk to them to try and get a result in the next match

 

Options:

*The results haven't been there but the performances are good, the win will come

*Next match is key. I expect a win.

*Forget the past results we have a good chance of winning the next game

*Relax and play your own game, we can pick up our form over the coming matches"

 

What do you think about that? At the moment it seems that if you don't tweak tactics and drop players then you are a bit stuck, this feels very limiting.

That would improve the game quite a bit IMO. I think that the current interaction with players is very limited and it becomes preety useless if the team is on a winning streak.

[Ashez]

5 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

I understand what you're saying, but what I mean is that if many people are confusing a role to mean something that it's not, then we either need to improve the role description or change how that role works. e.g. if 1/2 people misunderstand what a poacher does then it's not a huge deal, but if a large amount of people do then clearly we need to do something to make our perception of the role closer to yours.

I really like the suggestion of highlighting the relevant attributes for a player role on a player's profile. I think you should post it in the wish-list thread on the official forums @Dec. I can make no guarantees as to what goes in each year, but posting it there will make sure that we go through it when considering what features to put in. I really like the way it works in the PC version, it's helpful for sure.

That's the issue though IMO, to each person a role means different things. Say does a poacher attempt headers? Does a target man dribble? We don't really know by role description as daft as it sounds. (Not best example but top my head). 

If I said to you name one real life poacher, one ISF and one BPD  what are the chances we'll pick different players? If we pick different players for those roles/job descriptions even small differences with the way these players perform these roles equals confusion. A B2B midfielder has different roles in different systems yet he's still classed as a B2B midfielder. If it's the players stats that decide what type of a B2B midfielder he is then again it's something we don't really know. Do Pogba and Henderson play the B2B midfielder role the same?

All this is based on real life knowledge as the game doesn't give enough info/options but in real life there is no set in stone B2B or ISF and so on. 

Is Coutinho an ISF or an APM? Same question for Firmino? Do these roles press like the players do in real life or is that stat based? Yet with some options we could create roles more suited to said players where they could create and still take long shots and so on. This "class system" just doesn't do it for me.   

[Jack Joyce]

We do agree that news items could be a little more 'dynamic' and it is one of our long-term aims.

[Jens]

2 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

We do agree that news items could be a little more 'dynamic' and it is one of our long-term aims.

I'm just jumping into the conversation, so pardon me if this has already been explained, but I'm wondering how it's possible that results can can vary like they do when you reload before a game. If the engine calculates a game beforehand, and you change nothing at all when you go into that same game you've already played, where do the calculations vary to make the outcome so very different?

Thanks for the extensive explaining btw, I actually understood everything you said

[Jack Joyce]

6 minutes ago, Ashez said:

That's the issue though IMO, to each person a role means different things. Say does a poacher attempt headers? Does a target man dribble? We don't really know by role description as daft as it sounds. (Not best example but top my head). 

If I said to you name one real life poacher, one ISF and one BPD  what are the chances we'll pick different players? If we pick different players for those roles/job descriptions even small differences with the way these players perform these roles equals confusion. A B2B midfielder has different roles in different systems yet he's still classed as a B2B midfielder. If it's the players stats that decide what type of a B2B midfielder he is then again it's something we don't really know. Do Pogba and Henderson play the B2B midfielder role the same?

All this is based on real life knowledge as the game doesn't give enough info/options but in real life there is no set in stone B2B or ISF and so on. 

Is Coutinho an ISF or an APM? Same question for Firmino? Do these roles press like the players do in real life or is that stat based? Yet with some options we could create roles more suited to said players where they could create and still take long shots and so on. This "class system" just doesn't do it for me.   

These are valid points, but I feel like this level of instruction may be too complicated for most FMM players. Although I can't say for certain what may/may not happen in the future.

[Jack Joyce]

3 minutes ago, Jens said:

I'm just jumping into the conversation, so pardon me if this has already been explained, but I'm wondering how it's possible that results can can vary like they do when you reload before a game. If the engine calculates a game beforehand, and you change nothing at all when you go into that same game you've already played, where do the calculations vary to make the outcome so very different?

Thanks for the extensive explaining btw, I actually understood everything you said

The calculations happen as the game begins, because there can be many variables that changes in the day before e.g. player morale/happiness. But also, as in real life, sometimes a player will miss a pass that they normally would make, and other times they make the wrong decision when they normally wouldn't. This leads to very different matches, even with the same tactics/lineup. As a real-life example, take Liverpool v Burnley this season, I think that with the same teams/tactics that the result would be very different if they played again (most of the time anyway).

[Dec]

18 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

We do agree that news items could be a little more 'dynamic' and it is one of our long-term aims.

If we exclude the "News" and focus on the intra-club section of the feed such as expectations, staff comments/help/tips and reports this leaves a lot to be desired. So much there could help new players by making the game versatile and more natural.

 

For example:
Competition expectations before your first game + feedback after them

Staff feedback of players' morale (maybe before they complain) and how to handle problems

Recommendations randomly about potential transfers, tactical tweaks/playing certain players, new contracts and training changes

Expectations each month/recommendations and feedback each month about performance against expectations

Better post-match feedback not just highlighting bad things but looking at bigger picture

Set up team talks at key parts to give opportunity to elevate team/stop them being complacent/congratulate them

Training analysis (Player X has done well this month and seen a big improvement in his attacking attributes, Player Y is looking to be a player for the future in training etc...).

 

Sorry probably rambling now but if we are talking about game feedback and not even touching on the poor assistant/coach reports then these two areas would be a help to all. Hope you agree and can talk to the team/put it into the system.

[Ashez]

7 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

These are valid points, but I feel like this level of instruction may be too complicated for most FMM players. Although I can't say for certain what may/may not happen in the future.

I understand that as the PSP was difficult to master but I do feel we could have the best of both worlds. Preset roles as they are now with changeable aspects to them. Make it clear the base roles work as expected and don't need changing while the changeable options are there for more depth/creativity and so on. 

In its current form what is the future of the tactics engine? I know you can't answer that but I can't see where it can go from a tactical standpoint if you don't leave this model behind. Sure you can add more roles every now and again but options like I'm suggesting would allow us to create our own roles. Pressing triggers and stuff like that could be interesting but that's harder to understand than basic Yes/No's on a role's duties. This current system has been stale for a while and I can't see where it can go 5 or so years down the line. 

As for the news I genuinely don't care about it, maybe that's just habit from it always being poor but I don't wanna play media manager. At least give us an option of a PR manager so we can ignore such things. Talk has often been about time sinks and media is just dull, regardless of how well it's implemented it would soon become a chore and a bore, it'll just be the same features over and over again like it is now, sure they could be more in depth but I don't see the point. Especially when key areas to the game like tactics and engine still need loads of work/improving. 

[Fish18ish]

1 hour ago, Jack Joyce said:

The role issue is awkward because we want the game to be accessible to casual users, where a short explanation of what the role does is easier to understand than a bunch of sliders. But that does have the knock-on effect where 'hardcore' players will want to know exactly what does what. 

The roles can perform differently depending on the player you use e.g. if you have a super low teamwork playmaker then it won't work out well.  I'd say that if you have any specific roles that you don't think are behaving the way they should, then please give us examples and explain exactly what you think the role should do compared with what it seems to be doing. We want the roles to be as intuitive as possible so if there's confusion then we would want to know exactly where and why.

I think one of the reasons people are always scraping around on here trying to work out what a role does is because there aren't enough! People are never sure what the exactly how a DLP behaves compared to a BWM, not because they are simply curious, but because they don't know what is closest to a DM or an Anchor Man.

I might be wrong but I think that's a huge part of the problem. Add in some more of the 'transition roles ' from FM and you'll be laughing.

[UKFootballScore]

I think player morale make makes a huge difference in a match and will impact on the match as a whole as lets say a low morale player might not make a crucial pass for example compared to a high morale player that can impact everything as a butterfly effect.

The issue is you hardly ever see anything about player morale and its hardly ever referenced to for example the dressing room harmony is all to do with morale basically but its never said in game so how would you know how to improve it 

If you knew it was morale then you could make changes for the low morale players by offering contracts to them to make them happier and thus playing better in games and making that crucial pass which could lead to a win and its this aspect of the game which imo needed improving 

[Dar J]

1 hour ago, Ashez said:

Yeah I can understand all that, tbh while I don't know what each role does to a T in game I am happy in my own knowledge, yes I want more options but I'm from the PSP days so yeah. However I see issues with new players or those not as tactically interested in real football getting lost, which they do and answering such questions is a big part of Vibe when I don't feel like it should be, not all FMM players will find Vibe or be interested enough to go looking for help. 

How can we say a role isn't working when we don't really know what it should be doing? If people sent you messages every time something felt off you'd get nowhere lol. I do feel it's impossible to help as we don't know what the player should be doing by SI's designed role, then we also don't know how his actual stats impacts how the role is played and so on. It's impossible for us to help unless the issue is obvious like ISFs always staying wide etc. To me the confusion and frustration is the lack of information and the lack of options, I do think they go hand in hand. 

Sometimes it's not only the role but the play... in my current save with A.C Milan I initially played both Embolo and Niang as Poachers (playing on the EME) and I noticed that when Embolo was in a position where he could shoot from he would rather pass the ball if someone is available and he drifts both left and right and comes deep to get the ball while Niang drifts left and right yes but he's more willing to take the shots himself so my solution was when I play Embolo I'd use him as a CF with someone selfish in the AMC position while Niang plays as a poacher but with a more creative and generous player so in this example the role is not really the problem I think

[Dec]

10 minutes ago, Ashez said:

I understand that as the PSP was difficult to master but I do feel we could have the best of both worlds. Preset roles as they are now with changeable aspects to them. Make it clear the base roles work as expected and don't need changing while the changeable options are there for more depth/creativity and so on. 

In its current form what is the future of the tactics engine? I know you can't answer that but I can't see where it can go from a tactical standpoint if you don't leave this model behind. Sure you can add more roles every now and again but options like I'm suggesting would allow us to create our own roles. Pressing triggers and stuff like that could be interesting but that's harder to understand than basic Yes/No's on a role's duties. This current system has been stale for a while and I can't see where it can go 5 or so years down the line. 

As for the news I genuinely don't care about it, maybe that's just habit from it always being poor but I don't wanna play media manager. At least give us an option of a PR manager so we can ignore such things. Talk has often been about time sinks and media is just dull, regardless of how well it's implemented it would soon become a chore and a bore, it'll just be the same features over and over again like it is now, sure they could be more in depth but I don't see the point. Especially when key areas to the game like tactics and engine still need loads of work/improving. 

How to make FMM Tactics like PSP but not..

1) Role Mentality like PC with attacking, defending or neutral ONLY

2) Instead of primary attacker/outlet on team tactics place on tactic pitch with an arrow or + that can set "Main Goalscorer" and "Main Playmaker". Also add Free Roles (available to more than one player) and set "Primary Free Kick Taker/Penalty/Corner" and 1 back up. 

3) More Team Tactics such as Very Defensive and Very Attacking, Man/Zonal marking and Tempo.

 

I do not want forward run arrows in the game as this should be done by the right player roles and role mentality will dictate how much.

 

Also about media, done in the right way it can help you manage your team, provide more information and give a degree of variety to the game that wouldn't make it dull and would immerse you more. Obviously balance and variety are key to this though else it won't be a big improvement over now but in the correct set up it should give you everything you want feedback and control wise with a bit more to help you feel like you aren't second fiddle to the AI. It needs to be centered around the player to make sure this is the case and not have too much irrelevant stuff like present. But again, it needs to be done with the games' ethos in mind but better news/media with the right spacing between the interactions would solve a lot of problems and enhance your experience loads.

[Ashez]

That wouldn't give us as much freedom though, that would still have all the long shot issues and whatever else. What if you want your winger to cut in like an ISF but instead of going for goal being creative, I dunno first thing to come to mind lol. 

1. Interesting enough

2. Just moving one screen to another

3. Would add little. Zonal/man marking etc could be interesting but if they don't think people can handle designing roles how'd they handle that. 

Come on its 2017 basically and we still have no corner/set piece options lmao. That's like a style of play almost completely ignored. 

I'm not on about forward arrows as such but a way to help direct movement. Take Brazil for example, when the LB bombs forward the LCB slides over to near LB with the DMC slotting in between the two CB's and so on. Somewhat like how to play in certain phases of play maybe. 

That wouldn't give us as much freedom though, that would still have all the long shot issues and whatever else. What if you want your winger to cut in like an ISF but instead of going for goal being creative, I dunno first thing to come to mind lol. 

1. Interesting enough

2. Just moving one screen to another

3. Would add little. Zonal/man marking etc could be interesting but if they don't think people can handle designing roles how'd they handle that. 

Come on its 2017 basically and we still have no corner/set piece options lmao. That's like a style of play almost completely ignored. 

I'm not on about forward arrows as such but a way to help direct movement. Take Brazil for example, when the LB bombs forward the LCB slides over to near LB with the DMC slotting in between the two CB's and so on. Somewhat like how to play in certain phases of play maybe. 

[Dec]

The thing is long shots should be a core of an Inside Forward but there needs to be tweaks so it isn't ridiculous. There should also be more roles that do certain things so every base is covered without going back to PSP days. Mentality could calm this down too as a neutral one would stop them getting forward as much.

[billy2shots]

Regarding player roles. 

We could all agree on exactly what each player role should represent but if the that can't be implemented then everyone loses, players and creators. 

How many attempts were needed to get an IF to actually cut inside? 6 patches I think, All of FMH15 and upto a recent patch on 16. 

Leaving player roles a little unclear builds in a little safety net and creates a grey area for when the match engine fails to deliver what you ask it to through player roles. 

I'm sure by choice SI would love to give us more freedom but they are not fully in control of what the current limited player roles do so giving more choice just creates more issues. 

For the record the IF still isn't fixed. It's been tweaked too far the other way and IF's are far too powerful on the latest patch. 

[samhardy]

My main concern about the media is the fact that it hasn't changed at all since the PSP days; it's one of the main tasks of a modern day manager yet somehow the only options we get on occasion is 'defend player' and 'criticise player'. We don't even get to know why we're criticising the player as the one sentence in the news section doesn't give much away at all. Before big games there has to be more in there regarding the media imo even if only for finals but the build up for games like that currently feel the same to any other which shouldn't be the case. Unfortunately though the options seem too limited to actually make a significant difference.

Tactics and training is the main thing I want improved in 17, more options in the team instructions and more detailed player roles although Jack already stated that is awkward one due to casual gamers not wanting that many. I would also love the suggestion earlier highlighting the key attributes on profiles for suggested roles, whereas training seems to have been overlooked every year since the early PSP games.

[Ashez]

It should be a staple of ISF's yes but not every wide player that cuts in has to shoot. Sterling for example isn't really known for his distance shooting but he does cut in a lot. That's more my issue I think, it's not that I want to change what roles currently do but I want to be able to have players do what I want them to. The editing of current roles is just an easier way to do it compared to the PSP days where we did invent roles. 

Good points Sam, new training would be really good. 

I want to thank @Jack Joyce again for today, this thread has had 380 odd views today which shows how important this type of discussion is and why it should happen more often. My careers usually hit 100-150 views an update so that to me shows how important this stuff is. Major game news aside I don't think I've seen anything hit views like this. 

[Dec]

I agree. Thank you @Jack Joyce. It is nice to have feedback on the game and our ideas from an insider's perspective.

[Lav50]

This game needs more depth IMO..overall and especially with media and UI in general..upgraded news tab that would actually make a player feel like a manager,new leagues would be nice although not top priority,AI tactic bug is annoying..transfers could be improved, for example every time I try to buy a player they ask for insane amount of money which can't be negotiated which brings us to another problem..contracts and negotiatons(final offer like in PC version..or giving some money now and rest on 12 or more months I am not sure what is the word for that in english,player contracts could be more polished).I understand this is much more casual game then FM but with work and bit of will it can keep its simplicity and still be fun to hardcore and dedicated players as lot of us avoid FM because it is not portable like FMM so I think that FMM is nowhere near its full potential

 

 

Edit:I also noticed bidding war issue..today I approached John Stones and when I did so did Utd..I reloaded few times without approaching him and Utd didn't send City any offers..this happens a lot, when I try to sign a player another club gets into bidding war although they weren't even under interested clubs in contract tab

Edited September 27, 2016 by Lav50

[Jack Joyce]

11 hours ago, Lav50 said:

Edit:I also noticed bidding war issue..today I approached John Stones and when I did so did Utd..I reloaded few times without approaching him and Utd didn't send City any offers..this happens a lot, when I try to sign a player another club gets into bidding war although they weren't even under interested clubs in contract tab

Sometimes bidding for a player can lead to other clubs coming in for various reasons e.g. agent shopping around to get a better deal.

[UKFootballScore]

10 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Sometimes bidding for a player can lead to other clubs coming in for various reasons e.g. agent shopping around to get a better deal.

This happened to me aswell 

Would be good if something was said along the lines of Manchester United have seen Tottenhams offer and have decided to match it or beat it etc but right now its literally like I bid and out of no where they bid aswell The rumour section should be more readily readable aswell as in it should come up on the news if you want it to

[Dec]

7 minutes ago, UKFootballScore said:

This happened to me aswell 

Would be good if something was said along the lines of Manchester United have seen Tottenhams offer and have decided to match it or beat it etc but right now its literally like I bid and out of no where they bid aswell The rumour section should be more readily readable aswell as in it should come up on the news if you want it to

Even just an increase of media speculation on players before such as "5 clubs are thought to be chasing Juventus midfielder Paul Pogba. Chelsea and Real Madrid are believed to be the front runners."

[UKFootballScore]

Yeah thats right mate just something like that with a link to the rumours page

[Dec]

3 minutes ago, UKFootballScore said:

Yeah thats right mate just something like that with a link to the rumours page

I think one of the major problems is the strangeness of who they are. For example if you are bidding £5m for a player at Chelsea it shouldn't happen. It should be based on players' reputation relative to the clubs'. If you were bidding for Bruno Martins Indi for instance you shouldn't see many similar level clubs coming after him, where as if you were bidding for John Stones then it should happen as it would in real life. Also it doesn't happen between 2+ AI clubs where as it should.

Similar news article that would work as you said, where as mine is perhaps more general and can work at any time:
"After being alerted to his availability Manchester City have joined the race for the signature of John Stones. Chelsea are currently believed to have a bid tabled for the Everton defender."

[alja-ynwa]

On 04/08/2016 at 00:39, Ashez said:

If sales go down it's their own fault for releasing a rehashed bug filled product for 2 years and potentialy 3 years in a row with no new features worth talking about. 

Tbh I don't see sales dropping as casual fans will jump all over it which is all they want. They're happy for people to buy it and only have a few saves and move on like most mobile games, as long as they buy it again the year after they lose nothing. It's communities like ours that suffer when the game doesn't offer anything new to keep us playing and addicted all year. 

Cannot agree more.

[alja-ynwa]

On 27/09/2016 at 16:37, Jack Joyce said:

We do agree that news items could be a little more 'dynamic' and it is one of our long-term aims.

Needs to be more than that though pal. The game is stagnate, and has been for the last two and looks to possibly be three years.

 

just a shame I'm really passionate about FMM just want it to get better each year.

[Lav50]

From my understanding there are 2 options here

1.Developers don't give a f.. about us and just reskin the game to earn money

2.They have limited team and finances and FMM is just a game that gets year to year improvements rather then massive overhauls

 

I hope it is not first option

[Marc Duffy]

On 9/27/2016 at 23:00, Lav50 said:

This game needs more depth IMO..overall and especially with media and UI in general..upgraded news tab that would actually make a player feel like a manager,new leagues would be nice although not top priority,AI tactic bug is annoying..transfers could be improved, for example every time I try to buy a player they ask for insane amount of money which can't be negotiated which brings us to another problem..contracts and negotiatons(final offer like in PC version..or giving some money now and rest on 12 or more months I am not sure what is the word for that in english,player contracts could be more polished).I understand this is much more casual game then FM but with work and bit of will it can keep its simplicity and still be fun to hardcore and dedicated players as lot of us avoid FM because it is not portable like FMM so I think that FMM is nowhere near its full potential

 

 

Edit:I also noticed bidding war issue..today I approached John Stones and when I did so did Utd..I reloaded few times without approaching him and Utd didn't send City any offers..this happens a lot, when I try to sign a player another club gets into bidding war although they weren't even under interested clubs in contract tab

FMM is the fastest way to play FM. Every feature we look to add has to make sure it in some way adheres to this core principle of the game. I don't think for example media has a big part to play in FMM as it would interrupt the core game loop dramatically