2015 Pathetic

[billy2shots]

FMH15 is just about coming to an end and 16 is almost upon us. I have to admit that I cringe every time I see a new thread with people suggesting new things that should be included in future versions. I've said it once and I will continue to scream it from the rafters at every possible opportunity.

You can not add to an existing product if that product is faulty. All that will happen is the 'new product' will be worse than ever. I believe that is what has happened with FMH15. SI never fully fixed old issues but pushed ahead with new ideas anyway. The result? Possibly the worst FM to date (according to some long term players).

So what has prompted this latest rant from me? 2 things really, both pathetic in their own right that I have come across in my 2 latest saves.

First in my H2H with @leecutler (remember to update Lee). I receive a message to tell me that my goal keeper was selected for France and captained the side. Normally I would be chuffed for the guy but when he is my 3rd choice keeper and hadn't yet played a single game for me I was slightly puzzled.

 

Time to investigate.

 

Nope. No International cap. OK a slight bug but no reason to throw my toys out the pram is it.

 

 

Wait one second......

Not content with captaining the side, he is now scoring goals!!!!!!

 

It goes without saying that he didn't score or even play in the match.

 

 

 

On to the next subject that's annoying me on this fine Sunday morning. I'm sure most of us at some point or other have been annoyed with the ease in which the AI scores goals. We are fed lines like 'The game doesn't know who the human team is' and some people seem to have been convinced into thinking it down to the tactic that is being used by the human player. Then we will be shown 'real world' examples where this has happened ( usually 1 or two hand picked games from an entire season).

I personally have always looked at it differently. I consider it an inbuilt difficulty setting so to speak. For example I see screenshots of people winning leagues with incredibly low points totals, having scored very few goals and conceding loads of goals. On the other hand I have seen and experienced myself, the AI teams playing fantastically well and going on huge unbeaten runs to match the fantastic performance of the human controlled team. It's like the AI dumbs down for careers that are not going very well and improves against better played saves. This is very normal in computer games and is after all the main job of the AI.

Now in most games you don't see the game 'Balancing' things and leveling things up. Unfortunately in FMH we have the match engine which provides us with countless stats and its here where the balancing/cheating really shows up and frustrates.

So how can the AI live with a player that has created a tactic that it struggles against, a player that buys the right players, a player that understands the balance of squad harmony, experience, form and all the other little complexities? It becomes lethal in front of goal. Right now some of you will have decided to stop reading on. You are already convinced you have the answer. For that reason I will mention that this is slightly different to the other issue of the AI scoring from only one chance where I full accept that could be tactic related. I should also point out that I have upgraded the squad with quality players and taken experience into consideration and am still noticing the exact same thing.

My issue is the AI scoring from its FIRST shot on goal. It may go on to have 5 or 6 shots on target and if tactic related I believe it would score more than the one goal. As I said earlier when the human player gets everything right, how can the AI do its job of keeping the game interesting and more competitive? It has to cheat, there is no other way. I believe it is doing it in my current save by scoring from its FIRST opportunity very regularly. It happened for 2 seasons and I put it down to the quality of my players. In the 3rd season I started collecting evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From beginning of  the season until November 13th.

Another 2 games I was too slow to press the pause button. 

Don't get me wrong the save is going very well and the trophies are flowing but this happens in 50% of all games played. We are only up to November 13th!! Although judging by past seasons his will carry on at the same rate all the way through. I go on to win 90% of the games but it feels very artificial with the way the AI is trying to make the game harder. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by billy2shots

[halamadrid]

Your points are spot on,I know a very good manager(goes by the name of Halamadrid) who creates his tactic correctly yet the opposition opens the scoring with two players scoring their first ever senior goal.

[Ashez]

The second point is something I've always thought. I've found on too many saves that things randomly go tits up in the second half of the season for no logical reason. How often do these daft results come late on in a season? How often can you have a perfect Aug-Jan but the second half sees countless draws and difficult to swallow defeats? 

The game seems to get a lot harsher if you have a big points lead in the league, the second things even out and the AI get closer you'll often return to your old effectiveness. Trust me play in a weak league with a big team (FCP/Celtic etc) and smash the start, if you manage to pull ahead just wait for the shocking results to poor in. Most the time second place won't catch you (more likely to in Portugal) but the game will make things closer and ensure you don't win the league stupidly early. 

Obviously issues from our players getting cocky, complacent and generally trying less as the title is in the bag.......

[hardikchawla6]

The game is truly pathetic , the only good thing going for this game is the EME which is too slow for me to play. But this stuff is all normal for Sports Interactive. They have to focus on silly novelties like 'piracy' and the silly 'league rankings' , features which benefit no one . I don't even know what the league ranking system signifies , it's random half the time .

Edited November 1, 2015 by hardikchawla6

[billy2shots]

I would be really interested in SI explain how the AI regulates the difficulty. 

In other games it's far more obvious, take Mario Cart. If you are at the back you will get all the good weapons, lightening, red turtles etc but if you are leading you will get the crap stuff like coins or bananas. Pretty standard but it makes sense. 

FMH/FM have no other way to do it than during the match. If you are creating 20 plus chances on target it can't possibly let you score a fair number (5?) in every match. Likewise if you only allow a couple of shots on goal per game it HAS to score otherwise you will concede hardly any goals and storm every single competition. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by billy2shots

[Ashez]

The EME has exactly the same issues as the OME but they're packaged differently. 

OME - Too many shots, AI score with ease/super keepers. 

EME - Less shots in general but they have this clear cut chance nonsense. Personally this adds more frustration as the CCC makes no sense, you score regardless of if it's a CCC as do the AI (which is realistic). Instead of the higher number of shots the game has less but packages in the same crap people hate about the OME. You still miss countless chances but now you have to deal with if it was a CCC or not (which can make it okay in some people's eyes or exactly the same as any non goal on OME). While the AI still score in the same way, the only thing that makes it less frustrating is as you have less shots you see less saved/missed, however if you think about it it's very similar. 

When you think about the added time needed/wasted for the EME it's clear to see the OME is better (unless you like highlights) but SI have ignored it. There is a reason why most of us here play the OME still and the fact DMC's are still useless is infuriating. 

Vibe has seriously over complicated the EME, it's seriously not all that. The big push for the EME was how you have to react and all that jazz which is immediately rubbished by the fact you can play and do well on com only without seeing what's going on. If the highlights were so key and game changing com only surely can't be an option?

[oleg8979]

As I stated on the main discussion thread (I lost almost all the major finals during 13 seasons while possessing strong squads), this OE is very annoying and random and simply makes me mad... But EE is also not-so-brilliant as Ashez stated above and also it is too slow for me, single match can take up 10 minutes, for long matches I would prefer FM Classic /FM Touch...

So, FMH 15 looks quite unplayable for me, let's see what will be in FMM 16, I will not buy if it will stay the same (both OE and EE) and I will prefer to play FMT 16 in this case

[oleg8979]

The game is truly pathetic , the only good thing going for this game is the EME which is too slow for me to play. But this stuff is all normal for Sports Interactive. They have to focus on silly novelties like 'piracy' and the silly 'league rankings' , features which benefit no one . I don't even know what the league ranking system signifies , it's random half the time .

I agree about "League Standards"... It simply does nothing... Example: Two years after winning the CL with Welsh club, this rating grew up from 2 to 3.5 stars during 13 seasons, but Wales didn't get additional team in CL and even I still had to start from first qualifying round... And I lost to Celtic on 2nd round because: 1) there are no Seedings, come on, SI, this is not so hard 2) Their GK had 2 games of the live thanks to magic OME... So, what is the benefit of this rating???

Another example: Portugal is on 3rd position, Germany is 6th - why there are 3 Portuguese clubs in CL and 4 German clubs? Brilliant... 

[samhardy]

They used to say the poor weather in February/March time was to blame for bad results. It was obvious after a week of playing this year the engine was the poorest and most rigged yet.

[billy2shots]

There are other ways the AI could be programmed to go about it. I wouldn't mind if fornsome reason my time stopped creating chances or the opposition started creating more. Yes that would be annoying if there was no obvious reason but it would be better than what we have. 

This is how the game copes with high flying Everton and Lukaku going for the 1k. The following is 2 games from 3 matches where my team have just stopped winning and scoring out of the blue.

 

 

 

Lukaku with 1 goal from 21 shots on target. What on earth. I'm not even going to mention the lost headers lol.

[hardikchawla6]

HaHa This game never stops surprising me .

[Ashez]

Seen this all too often, it drives me mad lol. As does the old GK collapse out of the blue. Actually as does the the instant rating drop for yellow cards. 

[leecutler]

Since playing my Impossible Challenge I have across a few of these games where I am in complete control yet they have minimal shots and score a few goals

I mean is this some sort of sick joke! 4 shots on target and 3 goals yet I have 15 on target and score 1 goal! 

Although I scored 5 goals it's the same again 2 shots on target 2 goals this has happend alot how can I average 10-15 shots per game but average around 2.5 Goals yet my opposition has a 80% scoring rate!

I edited the pictures as this is from a new club and haven't posted on my career 

[Dec]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34623912
 

And United shouldn't have got a draw?

 

A bit less extreme but it does happen. I suggest going on the Enhanced Engine though it is a good idea about the flaws in the Original Engine.

[UKFootballScore]

Tottenham 0-1 Newcastle

…Im just going to leave this here

[leecutler]

Tottenham 0-1 Newcastle

…Im just going to leave this here

that is 1 game I have seen countless games like that 

[phila]

My current career (EE) with Sevilla, one game I had 5 shots on goal (no clear cut chances) by half time and scored with 4 of them. But then i came up against Real Madrid, I had 6 clear cut chances (17 shots on goal) and won match 2-1. Couldnt decide whether to be ecstatic at beating RM or go down to the dressing room and smash a few heads at the chances they had scorned. 6 clear cut chances!!!!

[Dec]

that is 1 game I have seen countless games like that 

This happens every week in football and it can happen both ways in FMH.

[leecutler]

This happens every week in football and it can happen both ways in FMH.

Happens to me alot in FMH tbh.

[Ashez]

Personally I think it's the way they broke the one up top formations. When using my 433 I run into the problem a lot less as the game can't screw three players out a goal, haven't found a solution to keeper collapses yet though :p. 

[Ashez]

Think about it, this became an issue in 2014, in 2013 the game was completely broken by lone striker formations that made a mockery of the engine. Everyone here used one striker formations and the results they produced were second to none, you just have to look at the amount of 1kcs completed that year compared to the last two, we even saw someone smash 2k! 

It's no coincidence IMO that this "feature" was added in 2014 and that ever since lone striker formations have been on the decline. 

[billy2shots]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34623912
 

And United shouldn't have got a draw?

 

A bit less extreme but it does happen. I suggest going on the Enhanced Engine though it is a good idea about the flaws in the Original Engine.

5 shots on target vs 1. I don't get it Dec, what is that meant to show?

 

@UKFootballScore as I said before, we can all hand pick individual games but that is very different to when it happens game after game. 

[billy2shots]

This chart shows the goal scoring ratio for last season (i.e a full season). It does not include penalties as that would artificially inflate the goal scoring ratio.

we can see that the players are scoring from between every 2 shots on target for Costa at the high end and just over every 3 shots on target at the low end in Austin an Bony. 

 

Note, I am talking about shots on target and not conv% which is all shots. 

These are 'real world stats' for an entire season (without penalties) and not hand picked stats from one off games. 

I would love for my world class FMH striker to score a goal every 3-4 shots on target, I would smash the 2k within 10 years  

 

Edited November 2, 2015 by billy2shots

[phila]

On 1/11/2015 8:51:47, Ashez said:

The second point is something I've always thought. I've found on too many saves that things randomly go tits up in the second half of the season for no logical reason. How often do these daft results come late on in a season? How often can you have a perfect Aug-Jan but the second half sees countless draws and difficult to swallow defeats? 

The game seems to get a lot harsher if you have a big points lead in the league, the second things even out and the AI get closer you'll often return to your old effectiveness. Trust me play in a weak league with a big team (FCP/Celtic etc) and smash the start, if you manage to pull ahead just wait for the shocking results to poor in. Most the time second place won't catch you (more likely to in Portugal) but the game will make things closer and ensure you don't win the league stupidly early. 

Obviously issues from our players getting cocky, complacent and generally trying less as the title is in the bag.......

This would explain a lot. Personally i reckon they shouldnt need to do this. If someone wants to play as Real Madrid and smash the league - so what. Its like choosing a PC game on easy setting. For those who want a harder challenge, they could choose a lower league team. I hate though having a season where no matter what i do, I seem to grind out a lot of 1-0 victories - sucks the life out of the game for me. Its the main reason I havent managed to finish a 10 year career yet in 2015. Of course, this could just be because Im actually not a very good manager.

[oleg8979]

One more reason to think that the game is simply pathetic (at least OE)

Yes, I played for Atletico, and resigned immediately after this "realistic" result

[hardikchawla6]

What the hell ? The bullshit just keeps on coming.

[samhardy]

6 hours ago, oleg8979 said:

One more reason to think that the game is simply pathetic (at least OE)

Yes, I played for Atletico, and resigned immediately after this "realistic" result

Probably just as well you resigned as you wouldn't have lasted much longer  

In all seriousness though that is beyond ridiculous!

[Ashez]

I've lost the first season SC 12-0 on agg this year :(. Needless to say that save never continued lmao. 

[billy2shots]

Sorry to bump this but I have been having some technical issues.

 

When I started this thread I was conscious of it sounding like i was throwing my toys out of the pram because I lost a match.
I really wanted to stay clear of that and I can not stress enough  that although frustrating, i fully expect losing matches that statistically I should have won. That is of course realistic because it DOES happen in real life.

My issue was with the following.

- Unrealistic scoring by opposition and lack of scoring by human player in  20+ games a season

- The inability of human controlled World Class strikers to score when having 10+ shots on target  10+ times a season.

- Sudden runs of bad form for no apparent reason to make the League closer than it should be.

 

Those points all add up to the AI altering the difficulty in my opinion. Which is fine and is exactly how any AI from any game should work. However our game (FMH) doesn't have bad guys that become slightly harder to kill or rival cars that become slightly quicker. We have football matches and all the stats that go with it.

My frustration comes from those stats/chances. I still have as many shots on target as I always have and the opposition only have the rare chance that they always have. However the ratio of shots on target to goals scored changes hugely.

I would find the game so much less annoying if the AI adjusted difficulty by not allowing me my regular 25 shots on target or creating more chances itself therefore scoring more. What we have at the moment is not acceptable. All in my opinion of course.

[UKFootballScore]

I still think the whole ' the AI score more goals from fewer chances' argument is bolony anyway tbh mate 

I'll use an example

You have a WORLD CLASS team, which is more often than not the case, and that world class will stop any attacks with their quality defending and midfield play

So I'd say any shot on goal that the opposition do get would probably be a good chance created and one they may well score.

Whereas when your team will be attacking, and if set to attacking, they will rush forward trying to score thus wasting chances as they rush them. Also for instance if a striker is on form and confident he'll try more ambitious shots which will most likely fail resulting in more shots etc

My point being you cant just look at stats you have to look at the game as a whole! Like a team could put another team under intense pressure with a series of corners from deflected crosses and blocks and stuff and not even have a shot in anger but when they get that perfect chance they will take it and score but when you just look at stats you'll see 1 shot, 1 shot on target 

THIS happens ALOT irl