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Career How many shots?!?


Muzza2108
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3 hours ago, Muzza2108 said:

Just sharing my huge dissapointment with Juve... All those shots... How... ?

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Jeez dybala of all people even missed 

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Smoke and mirrors. The stats at the bottom mean very little, with the tactic and players playing you were destined to lose. 1 shot on goal or 100, the outcome was going to be the same. 

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9 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

Smoke and mirrors. The stats at the bottom mean very little, with the tactic and players playing you were destined to lose. 1 shot on goal or 100, the outcome was going to be the same. 

No results in FM are pre-determined, the matches are simulated kick-by-kick. Having 42 shots but only 3 clear-cut-chances suggests that there is a tactical issue (As Dec suggested, probably too many attack-minded roles and not enough creativity).

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10 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

No results in FM are pre-determined, the matches are simulated kick-by-kick.

 

 

That suggests things are completely random. That is wrong. A calculation is made every time you press the play button. When you change tactics/make subs and hit play again a new calculation is made. Obviously works when the AI change things as well  

Are you saying the explanation going back 20 years is wrong. 

Edited by billy2shots
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3 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

 

 

That suggests things are completely random. That is wrong. A calculation is made every time you press the play button. When you change tactics/make subs and hit play again a new calculation is made. 

Are you saying the explanation going back 20 years is wrong. 

I'm not sure how that suggests things are random, real life football is played kick-by-kick. When you make tactical changes, the game of course re-calculates the match (again, kick-by-kick). Nothing is determined before the match, there's no such thing as being 'destined to lose'.

Edited by Jack Joyce
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4 minutes ago, Muzza2108 said:

Nowt wrong with my tactics just it makes me laugh when a game ends up like this... I've never seen 42 chances created before... 

You have had only 3 clear cut chances. I bet you play with INFs and BBMs as they shoot from range a lot.

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19 minutes ago, Dec said:

You have had only 3 clear cut chances. I bet you play with INFs and BBMs as they shoot from range a lot.

This isn't every game by the way... This happens once in a blue moon... No INFS and one BBM in a 433 formation... I just thought it was something funny to share with everybody...

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3 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

I'm not sure how that suggests things are random, real life football is played kick-by-kick. When you make tactical changes, the game of course re-calculates the match (again, kick-by-kick). Nothing is determined before the match, there's no such thing as being 'destined to lose'.

You suggest things are random by saying it's decided kick by kick. That doesn't actually mean anything and is an attempt to make it sound realistic. It is actually decided 'click by click's as I said and as you have admitted. That means that once he has made his choice of tactic and players (he could change it multiple times and the game would recalculate each time) the result has been determined. By saying it's determined kick by kick makes it sound like 'anything' can happen and it's completely random if your striker sticks the ball away or not. The match stats often and highlights are just fluff, more appealing on the eye than a bunch of numbers making up an algorithm.

I did an experiment on 15 playing 12 matches having saved the game just before clicking play. This resulted in the other team playing the same formation and players in each game. I played the each game making zero changes. 10 of the games finished by me winning by 1 or 2 goals. There were 2 outliers where I presume the AI made in match changes. They won 1 and I won by 5 goals in the other.

Back to those 10 games they were practically mirrors of each other. In some games I had a large numbers of Shots on Target, in some games I had few as did the AI team (same tactic and players remember) the result was still a narrow victory for me however in each game. That showed me that the stats varies wildly even in mirrored games, the result was very similar though. 

Ignore the stats and judge by your results.

 

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The game calculating every kick of the ball is not the same as the game being 'random', if anything it means the opposite. I've already explained how the ME works twice, you're free to believe what you want, I just wanted to clear things up so people wouldn't be misinformed.

 

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6 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

No results in FM are pre-determined, the matches are simulated kick-by-kick. 

 

Jack, I think I was the one who explained how the ME worked, you stated the above. 

Your explanation suggests that calculations are constantly changing with every kick of the ball until the final kick of the game even if no adjustments are made by human or AI  

The reality is if you click 'play' at half time and make zero changes and the AI make zero changes then the outcome has been calculated and decided since the 45th minute. 

Hardly 'kick by kick'

Edited by billy2shots
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3 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

 

Jack, I think I was the one who explained how the ME worked, you stated the above. 

Your explanation suggests that calculations are constantly changing with every kick of the ball until the final kick of the game even if no adjustments are made by human or AI  

The reality is if you click 'play' at half time and make zero changes and the AI make zero changes then the outcome has been calculated and decided since the 45th minute. 

Hardly 'kick by kick'

You're misunderstanding what kick-by-kick means. The match calculates every touch/kick of the ball, kick-by-kick. This isn't the same as the game working out a kick as it's being shown (which would be pointless), although the result is the same. i.e. it takes longer to show the game than it does to calculate every single kick of it, do you understand? I can't go into any more detail than that.

The point is that the result was in no way 'pre-determined', on another given day that match could easily have ended up 3-1 to him rather than losing, that's football. I'm sure Liverpool fans felt the same way after they lost to Burnley despite completely dominating.

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Okay, so the blame is placed on a tactical issue which in theory is sound enough. Only 3 from 42 shots on goal were classed as clear cut which again is fair enough even if that is a fluff stat which means little. (AI takes their chance too as always)

However here comes the issues. How are we meant to overcome these tactical issues? The blame is placed on roles which take long shots or aren't creative enough yet we can't control this? Judging on those stats that formation works to a T as it's dominated class opposition yet it's being held back? What's holding it back? Well it's the roles, how they work and the limited control we have. Sure a change or two could have changed the out come of that match and you're welcome to hide behind that but that formation worked, it dominated but it was held back for reasons we can't influence. This is what killed the game for me, it made tactic creating and tactical freedom infuriating. 

I was just about to bring up the Burnley match as you have done and this can and does happen in real life but it happens way to often in game and that lack of control is what makes it sting that little bit more. In real life you can tell a player to stop long shots, you can do this and that but in game it's just click and hope and it makes some roles like ISFs infuriating to use. 

The in game help is laughable (role info, coaches, reports etc) and real life knowledge is meaninglessness as it can't be implemented in game as we have no control or idea of what you guys see as a roles traits or how each players stats impact these roles. Everytime these issues are brought up the excuse is "well you use ISFs" or something like that which just shows there is an issue. 

 

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Jack I believe you misunderstand. You have clearly stated ' the match is simulated kick by kick' ,it is not. It's simulated and worked out at point of last adjustment from either manager. What happens between that last adjustment and the final whistle is set in stone so it is predetermined.

I believe you are trying to imply I think the match is set in stone before kick off and regardless of changes. That's not what I said to the OP. With his player selection/changes and tactics used throughout the match it didn't matter if he had 1 SOT or 100, the calculation meant he was going to lose. The stats make things look awful as they have done since FMH15 with the engines allowing far too many SOT.

Talking about a real life game is irrelevant and I don't understand what you are suggesting. It brings nothing to the discussion. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

Jack I believe you misunderstand. You have clearly stated ' the match is simulated kick by kick' ,it is not. It's simulated and worked out at point of last adjustment from either manager. What happens between that last adjustment and the final whistle is set in stone so it is predetermined.

I believe you are trying to imply I think the match is set in stone before kick off and regardless of changes. That's not what I said to the OP. With his player selection/changes and tactics used throughout the match it didn't matter if he had 1 SOT or 100, the calculation meant he was going to lose. The stats make things look awful as they have done since FMH15 with the engines allowing far too many SOT.

Talking about a real life game is irrelevant and I don't understand what you are suggesting. It brings nothing to the discussion. 

 

 

He isn't saying that isn't the case but it is simulating every kick in the match I believe which then changes every time you do something but the result at 0 minutes regardless of changes isn't what happens. I may be wrong, I have no idea how it works but I think this is what Jack is trying to say.

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14 minutes ago, Dec said:

He isn't saying that isn't the case but it is simulating every kick in the match I believe which then changes every time you do something but the result at 0 minutes regardless of changes isn't what happens. I may be wrong, I have no idea how it works but I think this is what Jack is trying to say.

This is correct. So when the game says you have had 40 shots, it's calculated all of those 40 shots, it isn't just making the numbers up. Any changes you make of course changes things as you would expect.

Ashez: I do understand what you're saying and this is something that we are always looking to improve. It's a fine line between giving the user more tactical options and overloading casual users (which mobile games will always have a lot of) with too much information. The Liverpool example was to show that, despite getting your tactics 'right' and dominating the game, things can still go wrong and lead to a draw/defeat. If you feel like this is happening too often, please do send us examples with results over the course of a season showing this. The more feedback we can get the better, especially with examples over a long period of time (rather than just one match).

This also applies to coach reports and role suggestions. Dec's made a useful post over in our wish-list thread that we do take notice of regarding player-roles in particular. 

Edited by Jack Joyce
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21 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Okay, so the blame is placed on a tactical issue which in theory is sound enough. Only 3 from 42 shots on goal were classed as clear cut which again is fair enough even if that is a fluff stat which means little. (AI takes their chance too as always)

However here comes the issues. How are we meant to overcome these tactical issues? The blame is placed on roles which take long shots or aren't creative enough yet we can't control this? Judging on those stats that formation works to a T as it's dominated class opposition yet it's being held back? What's holding it back? Well it's the roles, how they work and the limited control we have. Sure a change or two could have changed the out come of that match and you're welcome to hide behind that but that formation worked, it dominated but it was held back for reasons we can't influence. This is what killed the game for me, it made tactic creating and tactical freedom infuriating. 

I was just about to bring up the Burnley match as you have done and this can and does happen in real life but it happens way to often in game and that lack of control is what makes it sting that little bit more. In real life you can tell a player to stop long shots, you can do this and that but in game it's just click and hope and it makes some roles like ISFs infuriating to use. 

The in game help is laughable (role info, coaches, reports etc) and real life knowledge is meaninglessness as it can't be implemented in game as we have no control or idea of what you guys see as a roles traits or how each players stats impact these roles. Everytime these issues are brought up the excuse is "well you use ISFs" or something like that which just shows there is an issue. 

 

Spot on pal it's too easy to blame tactics and blame the manager etc I don't even use ISFs ?

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I'm completely lost. If he isn't saying that isn't the case why does he keep replying suggesting I am wrong. 

Jack two options, please tell me which is correct. 

Option 1.

After all final adjustments by either manager are made (let's say 60th minute) and you click play, I'm saying the result, number of goals scored and number of shots on target has already been worked out and is locked in until the 90th minute (provided no changes are made by human or AI)

 

Option 2. 

Even if no changes are made by human or AI after the 60th minute, the result and goals scored could be anything and is not predetermined (from the 60th minute)  

 

packet of if cheesey puffs says its option 1

 

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22 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

This is correct. So when the game says you have had 40 shots, it's calculated all of those 40 shots, it isn't just making the numbers up. Any changes you make of course changes things as you would expect.

Ashez: I do understand what you're saying and this is something that we are always looking to improve. It's a fine line between giving the user more tactical options and overloading casual users (which mobile games will always have a lot of) with too much information. The Liverpool example was to show that, despite getting your tactics 'right' and dominating the game, things can still go wrong and lead to a draw/defeat. If you feel like this is happening too often, please do send us examples with results over the course of a season showing this. The more feedback we can get the better, especially with examples over a long period of time (rather than just one match).

This also applies to coach reports and role suggestions. Dec's made a useful post over in our wish-list thread that we do take notice of regarding player-roles in particular. 

Glad you saw it :). I have a few ideas to make the tactics more in depth but not more user friendly.

 

1) FM's role mentality of attacking, balanced, defensive that defaults dependent on position the pitch/role.

2) Use captain/primary attacker/primary outlet/vice captain/Penalty taker/free kick taker but do these on XI screen and introduce Free role (can be used for multiple players) and maybe others as long as they have use and still make the game accessible. Maybe man mark option and shoot from distance which would make a player mark close or shoot from distance often allowing reductions from the BBM and INF role to make these instances happen less. Obviously this is a simplified version of the PSP system where you take the core ones and apply it simply to the roles to change them slightly.

The free kick and penalty taker will get rid of the 5 or so options you can pick that isn't used often on here. So it will be faster and more accessible.

 

@billy2shots He is saying option 1 but not 60th minute when the last action happens e.g. Half time or tactical change.

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I think Vibe and all the tactical/help questions show that casual users are already lost/struggling. The game doesn't do enough in game to give you the help you need and as I said real life knowledge only gets you so far. I'd hate to be a new player to the series tbh. 

What I'd like is to have preset roles like we do now which "casual" users can use but also giving us an option to open up these roles and make edits like long shots off. The preset roles would always be the same, however SI want to set them but by say double tapping you could pull up a menu similar to the PSP style where these edits could be made. This simple method would give the casual fan a base to work off and the more invested players something to play with. Something like that and arrows would really freshen the game up while giving us more freedom and options, the coaches were advertised to make the game more personal, yet 2015 and 2016 have felt the least personal in a long time, tactics are boring and only certain things work reliably, no point trusting ISFs as they'll screw you and so on. 

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13 hours ago, Dec said:

Glad you saw it :). I have a few ideas to make the tactics more in depth but not more user friendly.

 

1) FM's role mentality of attacking, balanced, defensive that defaults dependent on position the pitch/role.

2) Use captain/primary attacker/primary outlet/vice captain/Penalty taker/free kick taker but do these on XI screen and introduce Free role (can be used for multiple players) and maybe others as long as they have use and still make the game accessible. Maybe man mark option and shoot from distance which would make a player mark close or shoot from distance often allowing reductions from the BBM and INF role to make these instances happen less. Obviously this is a simplified version of the PSP system where you take the core ones and apply it simply to the roles to change them slightly.

The free kick and penalty taker will get rid of the 5 or so options you can pick that isn't used often on here. So it will be faster and more accessible.

 

@billy2shots He is saying option 1 but not 60th minute when the last action happens e.g. Half time or tactical change.

We always appreciate suggestions for future titles, but the best place for these is the wish-list thread so they don't get lost! We can always go back and look at the wish-list thread to see what you suggested, but it's harder to go back through all of the suggestions on vibe without just looking through every single thread. :P

Billy - I'm saying that option 1 and 2 are exactly the same thing. There's no difference between calculating every kick of the ball at the start of the match or as the match engine displays it to you, every kick is still being calculated in the same way. For a match to be 'pre-determined' it suggests that the result of the match has already been decided regardless of your tactical decisions or substitutions, or that the stats are just made up and has nothing to do with the result. Neither of which are true.

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Just now, Jack Joyce said:

We always appreciate suggestions for future titles, but the best place for these is the wish-list thread so they don't get lost! We can always go back and look at the wish-list thread to see what you suggested, but it's harder to go back through all of the suggestions on vibe without just looking through every single thread. :P

Billy - I'm saying that option 1 and 2 are exactly the same thing. There's no difference between calculating every kick of the ball at the start of the match or as the match engine displays it to you, every kick is still being calculated in the same way. For a match to be 'pre-determined' it suggests that the result of the match has already been decided regardless of your tactical decisions or substitutions, or that the stats are just made up and has nothing to do with the result. Neither of which are true.

The thing is with the wishlist is that you don't get a discussion from others or even yourselves on it. Would be great to have discussions about features to see the viability and if it is in the mind of the developers.

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Just now, Dec said:

The thing is with the wishlist is that you don't get a discussion from others or even yourselves on it. Would be great to have discussions about features to see the viability and if it is in the mind of the developers.

That's a fair point. Then I would suggest that you make a thread here/in general discussion on SI forums e.g. "Tactical Roles Improvements/Suggestions". This thread could invite discussion/feedback on the best way to improve that feature, then this information (or conclusion) can be posted to the wish-list thread (with a link to the thread reference).

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5 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

That's a fair point. Then I would suggest that you make a thread here/in general discussion on SI forums e.g. "Tactical Roles Improvements/Suggestions". This thread could invite discussion/feedback on the best way to improve that feature, then this information (or conclusion) can be posted to the wish-list thread (with a link to the thread reference).

Could we have more of an effort from SI to respond to suggestions? For example the one I posted about roles you said was great but I thought it had been ignored to that point. I know you're all really busy but it would go a long way for the community. Thanks.

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2 minutes ago, Dec said:

Could we have more of an effort from SI to respond to suggestions? For example the one I posted about roles you said was great but I thought it had been ignored to that point. I know you're all really busy but it would go a long way for the community. Thanks.

It can difficult to respond to suggestions sometimes since it's hard to say if/when certain suggestions would be implemented. We're very busy right now but i'll try to make an extra effort to respond to suggestion discussions when possible, especially if they have their own thread either here or on our general discussion forums.

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8 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

It can difficult to respond to suggestions sometimes since it's hard to say if/when certain suggestions would be implemented. We're very busy right now but i'll try to make an extra effort to respond to suggestion discussions when possible, especially if they have their own thread either here or on our general discussion forums.

I understand that, just a little comment every now and again, especially on posts that obviously took time with an opinion or just a "that's a great post, we will consider that" wouldn't go amiss. Thanks for making an extra effort, it is much appreciated. Even if it is just on the wishlist thread, to know we can go somewhere and get a response from SI would be great.

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The stuff about not being destined to lose is complete BS. It's the reason why I regularly go all season losing just one league game, but have never gone unbeaten. This normally comes against a rubbish team near the end of the season, who I know I would've beaten if I wasn't on course to go unbeaten. 

Sure, very occasionally you have a very unlucky game where you don't deserve to lose, but not as frequently as it happens in this game.

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1 hour ago, Fish18ish said:

The stuff about not being destined to lose is complete BS. It's the reason why I regularly go all season losing just one league game, but have never gone unbeaten. This normally comes against a rubbish team near the end of the season, who I know I would've beaten if I wasn't on course to go unbeaten. 

Sure, very occasionally you have a very unlucky game where you don't deserve to lose, but not as frequently as it happens in this game.

Disagree. I often find that those games are winnable with small tactical changes like moving from attacking to balanced when a small team is playing super defensive and counter. This often gets the opposition using up a little more allowing you to counterattack them. Using this sort of strategy I recently won every league game in a season and only drew 3 all year in all competitions. Granted this was in Brazil but there are around 80 games in all with the CWC and continental games included.

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